Nothin' but a "G" (body) thang

"thejustache" (thejustache) 09/17/2020 at 14:25 • Filed to: None

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First off, hi Oppo. Long time no post - it seems somewhere between the birth of my second daughter in February and then moving to working from home shortly thereafter I stopped visiting killing work hours on Oppo so much. Glad to see things are still here and active.

Secondly, the purpose of this post: After being a rally fan for most of my life (this hasn’t changed), I’ve had to be realistic about the fact that competing in grassroots rally is not something that I’m going to be doing at least any time soon. Even SCCA rallycross would be hard to do at this stage in my life, with the nearest event 2 hours away and the rest of them another hour or so further. Meanwhile there is a drag strip an hour away, and the one test and tune night I took my XT to was a lot of fun. I’m starting to realize if I want to have fun with cars at an extremely grassroots level that might be a more approachable path.

I’ve also realized that the most fun I’ve had with cars & bikes has always been with the rattier vehicles I’ve owned - the ones where I didn’t care about chopping into bodywork, rattle can paint jobs, etc. I’m now wondering if I had money for one hunk of junk ‘fun’ car, if it’d be better spent buying something American and body on frame rather than foreign and AWD. More specifically, I’m wondering if a GM G body would scratch the itch.

Anyone have any experience or opinions? Basically, fox bodies are starting to get priced out of the ‘cheap’ category, and the Panther platform cars all seem extra heavy. I’ve noticed you can still find some crusty Regals and Caprices (Capri??) Cutlasses etc for like $1-3k. They are also already so ugly that cutting one up almost seems like an act of mercy. I’ve got a sawzall, grinders, a welder, and time to tinker around the house... just not a lot of money. I’m thinking like a stripped out, primer black, tubbed with an oil drum kind of deal using junkyard parts, home-ported heads, and enough nitrous to make a dead man laugh. Or maybe an ebay turbo and several blown shortblocks, that sort of thing.

Anyone familiar with these cars and know if there are some that would make a better starting point than another? Is there a better platform I haven’t thought of? Right now I hardly wrench as our family cars are honestly too reliable, and while I am thankful for that I kind of miss it.

KnowsAboutCars > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 14:31

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Caprice is B-Body. Monte Carlo is Chevys G-body nameplate.

Also welcome back, although I can’t remember you.

thejustache > KnowsAboutCars 09/17/2020 at 14:37

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Right you are... I meant Cutlass. Oops

And Hi - I’ve been around since 2014 but I’ve always posted pretty sporad ically. Not sure who would remember outside of a handful of oppos

Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 14:42

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Hi, welcome back. Just to chime in on the rust situation (I’m our rust guy this quarter ) The place to look for rust on G-bodies, besides everywh ere, is the frame itself where it kicks up over the axle it tends to rot away on these cars with just the body actually holding the fame toge ther rather than the other way around. There are kits out there to repair it but there are also good ones out there.  I think its the passenger side that does it but not sure.  Its common enough that I won’t be the one one to offer this tip. 

old-busted-hotness-still-cant-comment > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 14:42

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G-bodys are getting to be a popular choice with rodders, and that means aftermarket support. Want to drop an LS in there? All you need is a credit card. They’re starting to repop some of the body and trim parts, too.

Snag one before the prices get out of hand. Monte, Regal and Cutlass seem to be the cool kids, so you can probably get a deal on a Grand Prix.

thejustache > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer 09/17/2020 at 14:44

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Appreciate the insight, thank you

MoCamino > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 14:55

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Love me some G -bodies. I’ve had my El Camino for several years now. It’s pretty easy to work on, just have to deal with the normal “40 year old cars have rusty bolts” stuff. Parts are generally easy to find, but the performance-type stuff can be a little pricier. I guess no worse than any other performance parts. They have a triangulated four link rear suspension, so there are additional things to think about if you’re drag racing. If you want a four speed, factory manual cars were less plentiful, but parts to convert are out there. (Mine came that way.) But for drag racing you’re probably going with a TH350 or another A/T, so no biggy. Check out the folks over at Malibu Racing . Lots of serious G-body racers there.

Sovande > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 15:03

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Good choice as they are obviously good cars to modify and I love my 87 El Camino. If you want to put power down with a G body you will want to remember to do something with amount of flex in the frame. There are all sorts of factory braces and aftermarket braces that could easily be made at home. Stock the frame is a bit noodly.

CobraJoe > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 15:06

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You can still find foxbodies in the $1-3k range... they just might not be Mustangs.

In the late 70s through late 80s, the Fox chassis was also used for the Capri, Thunderbird , Cougar , Fairmont, Zephyr, Durango, LTD, Granada, Marquis, and the Mark VII.

Granted, they were often slightly different to the Mustang, so all of the easy to find performance parts might not fit exactly. But, if you’re willing to tinker, you can rig up your own mods, and the platform is extremely easy to work on.

And the later SN-95 Mustangs are very simi l ar, with prices dropping like a rock, but I wouldn’t want to choose a 2 valve 4.6L for a race car.

Personally, if I were going for a drag racer with minimal investments into power in that price range, I’d look for a ratty Lincoln Mark VIII. Nearly 300hp in stock form, lots of weight that can be tossed out, and a block that can withstand a ton of boost (Not sure about the pistons or crank though) . Plus, they’re very cheap, lowest price locally is $ 1300, and good examples go for under $4k. And they look damn good in drag trim.

It wouldn’t be the easiest to add power to, it was not a common engine.  But the power to price ratio is hard to beat right now.  

Discerning > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 15:07

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It’s not a great chassis, it’s somewhat big and heavy, and the stock drivetrain isn’t great. I'd sooner recommend a V6 sn95 than a G body.

What are your goals and what is your budget?

thejustache > Sovande 09/17/2020 at 15:09

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I have heard the “G body shuffle” is a thing. If it’s something I could fix with some research, metal, and a welder than I don’t think it would be a dealbreaker

Snuze: Needs another Swede > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 15:09

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I think what you have in mind sound likes an awesome plan. As KnowsAboutCars said, Caprices are B-bodys, while Regals & Montes are G-bodys. Either are good choices, though, because either will accept a small block, or with a set of adapter mounts, an LS engine .

If I were in your shoes, and budget allowed, this is what I’d do. Go to a junkyard and look for an LS based truck motor. The best one is the LY6, which is an iron block 6.0L with LS3 aluminum heads. Retain the factory iron exhaust manifolds so you can flip them, add a Y pipe, and mount a turbo. I’d get an eBay turbo, a used Cummins turbo, or something like that, and an intercooler kit. T o round out the engine, you may need to play with various oil pans and accessory routing to fit your car, but luckily you have a lot of choices (trucks, vans, SUVs, Camaros, Corvettes, etc.). You’ll also need some fuel injectors to feed it, but those can be found on eBay, etc . Forums like LS1Tech are also a great source for inexpensive used parts. Anyways, t hat will get you started and make lots of power (probably north of 500, maybe even 600 ). 

For the rest of the drive train, I’d get a 4L80/85 HD automatic to live behind it. It’s not as fancy as the newer 6 speed autos, but it’s stout and has great ratio spacing. One aftermarket part I’d spring for is a custom torque converter for it, and a shift kit . I’d look for either a Ford 9" or Chevy 12 bolt rear with some 3.73 to 4.10 gears, preferably one with a posi or locker, to live out back .

If you study up on your LS motors and get clever (and a little lucky) with junkyard digging, you can put together a beastly turbo LS motor and accompanying drivetrain for not a lot of coin, that will not only go fast but be pretty reliable to boot.

thejustache > CobraJoe 09/17/2020 at 15:11

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Very interesting things to think about, thank you! I’m certainly not tied to any particular direction right now.

thejustache > Discerning 09/17/2020 at 15:17

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Definitely something to consider. Goals - my XT should run mid 14's right now , so I wouldn’t want to spend a lot of time and money getting to that same point with something else. If I could eventually get something running 12's or faster after a couple years of tinkering I think I’d be happy.

Budget? Pretty much nothing. If I could get a car for $3k or less and than put a grand or 2 into it per year I think it would be doable. I have a lot of other hobbies with stuff I could start selling/trading off if I’m having more fun with this.

thejustache > Snuze: Needs another Swede 09/17/2020 at 15:24

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Thanks for that, I’ve read up a lot but that’s a nice summary. I have wondered if it would be better to start building up a drivetrain first and then get something to put it in once I have everything together. It just seems like every RWD body on frame chassis keeps getting more expensive every year, but I suppose there will always be something if I’m not picky

Sovande > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 15:26

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I wouldn’t even even research, just weld some shit.

It's all very easy, and the results with any additional bracing is pretty dramatic. There are some very nice suspensions available. The sky is the limit there. I have a larger rear sway bar and boxed rear control arms. And it actually handles better than I would have thought. Before the sway bar it was a whole different ball of wax.

Discerning > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 15:28

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If you want dirt cheap straight line performance than your best bet would be a beat up fox body, lt1 or ls1 f body, DSM, or turbo Buick.

I think with any of the above, you might end up spending a reasonable chunk just keeping it on the road and safe, but thats only because you are looking for an exceptionally cheap example.

Not sure which I would do. Maybe DSM since I’ve gone down that path before and they can still be found cheap.

Or maybe I’d just get a dirt cheap lt1, gut it, reinforce the chassis, rear axle, and tyranny, and then throw a lot of spray at it. Then when the engine pops, pick up another dirt cheap engine.

Tho ugh you could repeat the above with a fox body and be lighter and have more proven formulas from which to base your build.

CobraJoe > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 15:35

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I’ll admit, I’m a bit partial to Ford, just because it’s what I know.

Though I can’t think of anything that comes close to that Mark VIII for stock performance at that price. It’s even a great option for a road tripper or weekend cruiser too, as long as you don’t tear all the interior out .

But if you’re wanting to build an engine up for big power with big traction, absolutely avoid the Mark VIII. It can be a bitch to work on, is covered in electronics , has a very limited (and expensive) aftermarket, and it even has a weird bolt pattern for the wheels .

Snuze: Needs another Swede > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 15:51

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I just thought of another option that might be right up your alley in terms of cost and ability... a pickup truck! Why not get a GMT800 (so 99 - 07 , I think) Silverado (or GMC Sierra) 1500 in 2wd with a regular cab (weight savings). The jury is out on short or long bed - the short box saves weight, longboi has extra wheelbase which helps with drag launches. Most of these would h ave had a 4.8L or 5.3L, which are both LS derived engines. They would have had a 4L60 transmission which isn’t quite as robust as the 4L80, and the ratio spacing is a bit wonky, especially for racing, but it would be a good platform to start with. It’s body on frame, RWD, and you also have a truck, to do truck stuff with. The good news, too, is that since a lot of LS stuff is interchangable, you can go ahead and put the turbo kit on, hammer  it with some boost, and then upgrade parts are you blow stuff up - when the motor goes, swap that 6.0L in, when the trans gives up, get a 4L80, etc.

Discerning > CobraJoe 09/17/2020 at 15:52

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The Lincoln has a legendary variant of the 4V modular. It is very very similar to the 96-98 Cobra engine (nearly identical). It loves boost and it is very stout stock. With a little internal work, it can be truly exceptional even by modern standards.

That Teksid block and B heads are what powered John Mihovetz’s cars to ridiculous times (albeit with plenty of money into them). Check them out. They are crazy

The Mark 8 is an awesome option that I often forget about. The 4r70w is strong and the rear is super strong too. The only negative I can even come up with is that they are large and heavy.

If you completely gutted one and threw enough boost at it, it would be seriously quick.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 16:04

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Have several B-Bodies (including a Roadie wagon.).

Lots of stuff will fit under there. Duramax. BMW V-12. Allison Mustang engine.

CobraJoe > Discerning 09/17/2020 at 16:30

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That Teksid block and B heads are what powered John Mihovetz’s cars to ridiculous times (albeit with plenty of money into them). Check them out. They are crazy

Just had to look up some of his runs. Damn.

I wonder how much boost the stock rotating assembly could handle? A junkyard turbo setup could be a fairly cheap way to get over 400hp, if you can figure out the EFI . Add a J-Mod to the 4r70w and some stickier tires, and you might have a 12 second car without having to rip out the interior.

I know you wouldn’t be the fastest thing on test and tune night, but it would be hilarious to show up in a “grandma gold” Lincoln with a full leather interior, and outrun a lot of unsuspecting people.  

Discerning > CobraJoe 09/17/2020 at 16:35

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The crank is forged and the block is good to go and then some. My understanding is the longblock is basically rods and pistons away from being extremely capable.

John goes into more details in this article too: https://www.enginelabs.com/features/clearing-up-mod-motor-misconceptions-with-john-mihovetz/

People have pushed the teksid and b heads to crazy realms. 10k rpms, ridiculous power, just silly examples.

Mark 8 might have goofy electronics, but it’s old enough that most people could get away with running a standalone without emissions issues.

Urambo Tauro > thejustache 09/17/2020 at 19:21

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G-body... don’t you mean G-series!

thejustache > Snuze: Needs another Swede 09/18/2020 at 09:05

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I like that idea too. Right now, the plan is to keep my Outback XT as long as possible since I like it, but I also do a lot of ‘truck’ type things with it - moving furniture, carrying lumber for house projects etc. I’ve always said if and when I replace it I’ll have to get a car and a truck because I haven’t found anything else that splits the line as well. If I could have a truck that still worked for moving things around but could also be FAST, then all the better. My only hesitation with a truck that new (I get that 99-07 isn’t new, but the far end is as ‘new’ as my XT) would be some hesitation on screwing it up if it starts out somewhat nice

Snuze: Needs another Swede > thejustache 09/18/2020 at 14:07

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Well if you’re looking to spend $3k on a vehicle you’re probably going to end up with a lower end, ex-contractor vehicle that’s pretty rough and higher mileage. But as long as the frame is solid and drivetrain has been reasonably well taken care of, you should be good to go.

Also, my regular cab, 2wd setup was just a suggestion based on how I would set it up, for “because racecar” reasons. There’s certainly no reason you couldn’t rock an extended or even crew cab, though as the truck gets longer, frame flex becomes more of an issue. As you start putting more power down it would be a balancing act between “race car” and “truck stuff.” I’m approaching this as you actually want a competitive vehicle. The other thing, you can run 4x4, in fact I’ve heard of guys doing that specifically doing that for launches. I remember reading about one guy who had a turbo LS 4x4 who said he’d leave it in 2wd and do burnouts to get the back tires nice and sticky, and then launch in 4wd for that bit of extra traction on the front end. If you’re not racing in a dedicated class that forbids it, this might be an option, and 4x4 = more truck stuff!

If you want to get really competitive you would need to get into suspension bits - lowering it, adding traction bars, or even converting to 4 link. But each of those is going to have some negative affect on it’s ability to do truck stuff, though I don’t think any would render it unusuable. Like I said, it’s a balancing act, and you could build a fun, fast truck that would turn a decent quarter and still be usable as a truck, or a full on drag monster that could occasionally do some light duty stuff.

Also, this thread inspired me. I’m looking to replace my Cruze in a month or two and this got me thinking about a truck again. I don’t need a truck often, anyways I’m more of a sports car kind of guy. But what if I got a Chevy Colorado in the 2wd manual trim, then lower  it? And, the engine in it is a 2.5L Ecot ec, so I don’t see why the turbo from a 2.0L Ecotec wouldn’t bolt right up to it?!? Bring back street trucks, baby!